Thursday, March 26, 2009

The Leaven of Tim Wirth’s Carnal Drums

I am so torn, just as I was when I heard good biblical teaching that rejected the emergent church, coming out of the mouth of a woman in the pulpit. Though the emergent church was rightly attacked, sadly an unbiblical teaching of women in ministry was also promoted. You can read more about this HERE. Unfortunately, the good of one thing is canceled out by the unbiblicalness of the other. It only takes a little leaven. Nina Gunter should have trusted God’s word, and kept silent in church, and then perhaps God would have moved in a man, and prompted him to speak. If no man would stand for Truth, then the Bible tells us that rocks and donkey’s (Numbers 22) can cry out the Truth of God, but NEVER a women in the pulpit.

But God does not need donkeys’, burro’s or ass’, because He has men like Tim Wirth who stand up for the Almighty Bible and speak its Truth. But this is where I am also torn; if only Tim Wirth would stand up for the WHOLE BIBLE and not just the parts he doesn’t like about the emergent church.

I have yet to see any clarification on Tim Wirth’s websites that denounce women in ministry and clarifies that he does not believe Nina Gunter should be allowed to teach, or preach, or lead men. I have emailed him about this, and he has asked me not to share the contents of his email- so I will respect that, but why does he not come out publicly and let us know where he stands on the Bible regarding this issue?? I have no confidence in him as a man that supposedly believes the Bible is an innerant and authoritive concerning ALL things, and yet chooses to be silent on some Biblical infractions by the Nazarene denomination while attacking others. We can NOT just cherry pick the Bible and pick what WE want to be for or against. We are either with the Almighty Bible, or we are NOT. Which is it Tim Wirth????

I can’t help but to wonder why? Why Tim Wirth has chosen not to believe the whole Word of God? Then I discovered the reason why. Tim Wirth is still a slave to his carnal nature and is in need of Entire Sanctification. Gee, I hope Tim believes in Entire Sanctification as the Biblical teaching it is. Any “Concerned Nazarene” after all concerned about our most important and Biblical doctrine. Tim Wirth’s Entire Sanctification is his only hope at eradicating that carnal nature of his that is keeping him from embracing the entire Word of God!

Why do I say this? How do I know Tim wrestles with his carnal nature? The Bible tells me he does, because Tim Wirth plays the carnal music of the Devil called Rock and Roll.

Tim Wirth was the former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters and a number of other bands. The “Playboys”? Oh, Tim the fact that you proudly list a name of a band you once took part in that was based on a pornographic magazine is truly a sign of your carnality.

It would be one thing if Tim had repented of carnal Rock and Roll, but he has fallen under the lie from Hell, that we can use carnal music for the glory of God. Revelation 18:22 tells us that God’s music will last and will be sung in heaven for eternity. Satan’s music will cease and states that the world’s "harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard…any longer." You see, the Bible is clear that the world’s music is of the Devil and will not excape the judgment of Hell! Just listen to what Bible expert and author of the Truth War, John MacArthur has to say:

"Our music cannot be like the music of the world, because our God is not like their gods. Most of the world’s music reflects the world’s ways, the world’s standards, the world’s attitudes, the world’s gods. To attempt to use such music to reach the world is to lower the gospel in order to spread the gospel. If the world hears that our music is not much different from theirs, it will also be inclined to believe that the Christian way of life is not much different from theirs."

"Rock music, with its bombastic atonality and dissonance, is the musical mirror of hopeless, standardless, purposeless philosophy that rejects God and reason and floats without orientation in a sea of relativity and unrestrained self-expression. The music has no logical progression because it comes from a philosophy that renounces logic. It violates the brain because its philosophy violates reason. It violates the spirit, because its philosophy violates truth and goodness. And it violates God, because its philosophy violates all authority outside of self."

"Putting a Christian message in such a musical form [rock style] does not elevate the form but degrades the message to the level already established in the culture by that form."

I have no doubt that God leads Christians to give up rock and roll. The Bible strictly forbids the believer to associate with the evil things of the world. Yet Tim Wirth holds on to his love for his carnal drums even though the Bible says this leads to destruction. “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

A more apt description of rock and roll could not be given that the one found in this passage: the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” sums up rock and roll. We see, then, that it is impossible for one who loves the Father to love rock and roll. A choice must be made.

Unfortunately, Tim Wirth deceives himself and says that he can have both God and Rock and Roll. He thinks he can use his carnal drum music for God, as long as he uses words from the Bible as his lyrics. How sad is it that he would try and God’s word conform to fit in the world’s music of Rock and Roll? Listen to the Word of God Tim, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2).

The believer is forbidden to be conformed to this evil world. He must not allow himself to be fashioned by the world’s ways and thinking and lusts. It is impossible to know the perfect will of God unless he un-conforms his life to this world. And that is why Tim Wirth’s message can not be trusted, even when it seems right. A little leaven ruins the whole lump of dough making it wirthless.

Tim Wirth is playing in the Devil’s playground, which is why he will not condemn all unbiblical teaching. That is why he will not condemn the preaching of Nina Gunter in the church. Through Rock and Roll Tim Wirth is flirting with the occult, which often have women as “High Priestesses” in demonic rituals. Is Nina Gunter Tim Wirth’s occultic High Priestess? We know he loves the occultist music of Rock and Roll, so you never know.

Oh, if only Tim Wirth would heed the warning of Scripture and come and be separate from the Devil’s drum set. For, “What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Cor. 6:14-17).

Rock music, any rock music is FLESH! You can label it "Christian", but that doesn't change it's nature – it's still FLESH. You can label strychnine "candy", but that doesn't make it candy – it's still POISON.

Still don’t believe me? Let us look at what the Bible says. You can not argue with the Bible.

God is a SPIRIT.

"God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in truth." John 4:24

"Now the Lord is that SPIRIT:. . ." 2 Cor 3:17

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the FLESH, but after the SPIRIT." Romans 8:1

God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:. . ." John 6:64
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his SPIRIT." 1 John 4:13

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his SPIRIT:. . ." 1 Cor. 2:10

God's music is spiritual not fleshly.

". . . I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."(1 Cor. 14:15)

" . . . be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite, enemies.

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:5-8

"For the FLESH lusteth against the SPIRIT, and the SPIRIT against the FLESH: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ." Galatians 5: 16

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the FLESH." Philippians 3:3

God is against the FLESH.

Not only is the SPIRIT contrary to the FLESH, but God is AGAINST the FLESH.

"So then they that are in the FLESH cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"That no FLESH should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:29

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the FLESH with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24

So let's add this up . . .

1.Rock music (any rock music) is FLESH
2. God is SPIRIT.
3. God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.
4. The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite.
5. God is against the FLESH.

Answer... God is against Tim Wirth's carnality, drums and rock music. How can this lead to sound Bible teaching??????

How can anyone, who understands simple Bible verses, honestly "justify" rock music as a "tool for reaching people" for Jesus Christ? How can the "seeds" of FLESH grow "fruits" of the SPIRIT?

THEY CANNOT . . . IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Yet Tim Wirth IGNORES the BIBLE HERE. He thinks he can justify the carnal music he sows to his flesh. Tim Wirth thinks what he sows to his flesh will somehow reap something spiritual.

And ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are DECEIVED! According to God – a Christian who claims they are using "flesh" [rock music] to bring forth "spiritual" [new birth, salvation] — they are "MOCKING GOD" — and calling God a LIAR, according to Galatians 6:7.8!
This is not my opinion; it is what the Bible has to say!!!

Be not DECEIVED God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7,8

Could God possibly make it plainer? Only a disobedient, carnal, backslidde, Christian who will NOT submit to the Word of God like Tim Wirth would justify fleshly, rock music as a "tool" to bring forth the spiritual, new-birth! It is NOT possible! ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are deceived!

"Be not DECEIVED Tim Wirth, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:7,8

Pray for Tim Wirth’s soul for he is deceived. Pray that he will stop worshiping the High Priestesses Nina Gunter and stop defending he unbiblical position as Teacher over men. Only those who worship at the idol of liberal theology permits things the Bible condemns!!! And Pray that God will get to the root of this occultist practice found in Tim Wirth’s love for carnality found in his rock and roll music!!!!! Maybe if he will give up his drums then he could be used as the Watchmen God meant him to be, Repent Tim, Repent!! And as for everyone else, beware his teaching until he does!!!!!

Chuck F. Dobson


  1. It’s funny that you would bring up Tim’s entire sanctification because that is exactly what the Lord has been placing on my heart over the last several days. I know that Tim left the Modesto First Baptist Church because they began to be seduced by the Willow Creek Movement, Lectio Divina among many other things. As I read Tim’s blog it becomes clearly apparent that he is still a Baptist and most of his complaint is that the Nazarenes are not Baptist enough. All of Tim’s heroes and sources are Baptist. I have never once seen Tim refer to his entire sanctification. I don’t think Tim even knows what it is. Tim has never had a crisis leading to the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the complete and instantaneous eradication of his carnal nature. Tim clearly hasn’t "prayed all the way through" and "laid it all on the altar" and run up and down the aisles "drunk in the holy ghost". If he had he clearly wouldn’t still be beating out heathen jungle rhythms on his satanic drums. Tim is clearly a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is what God has laid on my heart and he wanted to post these words for Tim. Tim knows these are the last days and he could be raptured at any moment. Tim thinks he is ready to go, but he isnt. Come Tim, come quickly. Just as you are, Tim, without one plea.

  2. I don't even know what to say about all of this other than I find the thought of rock music being from the devil just a tad over the top.

  3. The Lord has has placed it upon my heart to exegete the you tube of Nina Gunter in the previous post. She referred to the emerging church as merely a challenge. However she referred to her other two concerns as invasions, one - an invasion of the mind. Calvinism invading the minds of students, and Reformed Theology invading Arminian Theology. Tim is a perfect example of "Reformed theology invading Arminian theology". Nina Gunter's statement is a direct attack on Tim. Tim, my brother, this is a direct attack on your gift of discernment that God has given you. Are you going to pull down your dress, step up to the plate, and defend the inerrancy of God's holy book or are you just going to roll over like a little puppy. Tim, what would John Calvin do? Even more important, what would Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron and Todd Friel do? If you are going to run with the big dogs, you had better step up. Everyone is watching.

  4. What planet are you from anyway. I'm so offended by your narrow mindedness. I'll have you know that I became a born again Christian in 1985 at a Stryper concert.

    I was so into music like Van Halen, Ozzy, and even banks like U2. But Stryper saved me from the influences of secular rock. I burned all my secular rock album in Jan 15th 1986 and never went back. Now as a 45 year old family man, I only listen to contemporary xtian.

    But this idea that drums and the rock music form is somehow corrupting is insane. I'm telling you straight up--Stryper led me to Christ. You can take that to the bank.

    I don't even know why I posted, you just made me SO MAD. I don't see how you can be a Nazarene. I know some very good Nazarene pastors that listen to Styper, Petra, Kings X, and many other Christian Rock bands. And btw, people say that Christian Rock is not as good of music as secular rock. Well, they haven't taken the time to listen to Stryper's "The Yellow and Black Attack" album.

    What church do you go to anyway? You should know that my Nazarene Church has a kick'n worship team. In fact they have 3 percussionist all playing at the same time.

    I'm not sure about the band that you say this Tim guy played in, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I could see how a band called "The Playboys" could really reach a lot of people for Christ. Because, the would should kindof like a secular band, and non-Christians (I like to call them pre-christians) would come their concerts and hear the message of the Gospel. I love it when God is sneaky like that. That's what happened to me. I thought Styper was like a real band. Boy did they sneak up on me and change my life.

    On a side note, I didn't know it at the time, but a good friend of mine, also a Stryper fan, told me that the band Extreme was even a Christian band. I wish I hadn't burned their albums. That's way sneaky.

    So, I guess in conclusion, I say, ROCK ON Tim! And, Charles you need to lighten up.

    God Bless,
    Kenneth Canton

  5. "Let's give him the benefit of the doubt"? You need to read 1 Timothy 2:9-12, Genesis 19:30-38, Hezekiah 12:1-7, and then you need to go to You Tube

    and listen to this perverted filth before you suggest that God can use this music to "sneak up" on people. This music promotes fornication, adultery, unfaithfulness and the wearing and the free and easy trading around of jewelry and worldly adornments between women and also the wearing of long hair on men and the taking of LSD. Believe me, I was at one of these concerts at the Altamont Raceway Park in December 1969, and someone gave me some purple haze and during the concert Tim's boots fell off to reveal goat hooves instead of human feet. There was no one being born again at that concert. Next time you see Tim, ask him to take off his shoes. He will not do it.

  6. Kenneth,

    You do not seem to get that the blog is a spoof of the kind of attacks guys like Tim Wirth make toward others.


  7. Kenneth,

    You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the Bible!!! Don't you trust the Word of God????

  8. anyone who listens to stryper is a reprobate.

  9. Getting saved at a Stryper concert is like getting saved from reading The Message. Just can't happen. You have not encountered God's word in either case.

    "Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you." - 1 Samuel 12:24

    You are considering the things that Stryper hath done, not that the Lord hath done.

  10. Look Brother Kenneth, unlike some of these hard core bible thumpers, I am not going to question your salvation. If you say that you are born again, at a Stryper concert, BAM! you're born again, but I am a liberal. The democracy of God is breaking out. The table is prepared for lepers, prostitutes, the homeless, immigrants, homosexuals (Matt 9:10), but Tim Wirth could very well question your salvation, and there is little rhyme or reason behind how he does that, only a string of unrelated, out of context, and nonsensical proof texts. Now in your case, Tim may not condemn or judge you. 'Tim moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform' (Hezekiah 3:9). He may grant you special dispensation: Stryper has drums, he's a drummer, ipso facto. However, and here is the rub, being converted at a Stryper concert, is very "emerging church" like, and it is also a very suspect kind of "spiritual formation". Do you know what these things are? Tim doesn't know either, but it doesn't stop him. Personally, I don't see how you will survive Tim's wrath to come (Rev 6:17) when he finally figures out what you are really all about. You could very well find yourself on a DVD. In the meantime, ignore the ignoramuses, unless of course, they start getting out a stake and the matches, then, I think we go to France.

  11. OK, so I feel pretty dumb now. I get it, ha ha, LOL.

    btw, just because my journey to Jesus was different than the rest of you guys, doesn't give you the right to be so dismissive of me--totally uncool.

    I used to go to one of these so-called emerging Nazarene churches in Kansas City. In fact I used to tell my old pastor all the time that Stryper started the emerging church, like what de la Cruz said. He was a way cool guy. He used to quote U2 from the pulpit which I was sometimes uncomfortable with, but he really loved people.

    My life has been a pretty rough one. Since 1995 I've been battling pretty debilitating depression. My wife is really supportive. If it wasn't for her, Jesus, and the encouragement the music gives me I don't think I could make it through the days.

    I don't know, I just think a lot of you guys are being pretty uncharitable. You should reread your comments above and ask yourselves what would Jesus do.

    I came to Tim's defense, but it sounds like perhaps, he needs to lighten up a bit too.

    I want to apologize if I said anything that offended someone.

    Well, I doubt I'll every post here again, but I bet we'll all see each other some day--Lord willing.

    God Bless,

  12. Kenny,

    Don't worry about it- I think even some of the comments in here are spoof

  13. Kenneth, this blog is like some other blogs. You hit the nail on the head when you said that Tim Wirth (and others like him, on those other blogs, need to lighten up). You brought the Gospel to a very dark corner. The Good News of "lighten up". We are surrounded by legalists, pharisees and the sanhedrin here. What Jesus said to the those of his time who pointed the long bony finger of judgement and condemnation and tried to stop the Kingdom of God from breaking out was basically "lighten up" and then he cast out demons. There are demons in these blogs and it's nearing the time to start casting them out. Stand firm on the gospel and do not yield to anyone. You havent said anything to offend anyone, especially on this blog, I don't think that's possible.

    I appreciate your frankness about your life. I wish I had a solution. I know others in the same struggle. I've got to believe that if you keep getting up and moving forward you'll get where you want to go. God bless you, Kenneth

  14. Rock and or Roll are from the devil! Really! He told me so when we met at the cross roads and traded a really good sense of humor for my soul.


  15. 請你這一次不要再刪
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    蔡昀叡?"! 靈修

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  16. "a philosophy that renounces logic"

    i thought that was christianity?

  17. I wondered how long it would take the emergent nazarenes to slip into the pit that has engulfed the rest of the liberal left, "Christian" and non-Christian. I am not surprised by this site. You see, when one cannot put forth a convincing argument, one turns to things like this. I am glad you have given up on arguing since it is truly pointless when you have no argument. And by the way, you should really learn how to spell...or are you opposed to the authority of the dictionary as well?

  18. Apparently, James Diggs thinks this is a clever way to counter those who are opposed to emergent teaching who are trying to get the word out to others in the Nazarene church.

  19. I invite all you Biblical Nazarene's to bring all the heretical emergent-type books and join us for the Halloween Book Burning at the Amazing Grace Baptist Church of North Carolina:

  20. I'm so GLAD you took the time to expose the use of Rock and CCM in our churches for what it is! I have worked diligently to train our 4 children to HATE rock music of ALL FORMS and love traditional gospel music. I'm 38 years old and my wife is 41. We were taught that rock music was of the devil and out of the pits of hell when we were growing up in the church. I guess I believed what those preachers taught us back then. I have wondered for quite sometime where all those preachers went? Are they all dead now? Did they backslide? Are they now allowing this in their churches when they one time stood against it? It's amazing to me how that Rock music and the Emergent Church movement go hand in hand, yet a rock lover and drummer will come out in opposition to the very movement that he helped create by his own appetite and love for DEMONIC MUSIC! The pot is definately calling the kettle black here!

  21. BTW, You guys that like to lable people like us as extreme "Bible Thumpers" and such are really missing the point. After all, we are all "thumping" and promoting something. You are "Rock Thumpers" and we are "Bible Thumpers"! I know where and what I want to be found "Thumping" on the day of Judgment!

    And it ain't Stryper!

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  25. Biblical ChristianJuly 9, 2017 at 7:36 PM

    Any of you who are giving the devil the ability to create anything(music or otherwise) are not reading the scriptures correctly. God made all things and is in all things-the devil may try to pursuade people to pervert them but all things ie music, were created to worship God. While you can measure music based on the lyrics, the instruments don't have the ability to be good or evil in and of themselves-just like the spoken word.