Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Nina Gunter shows us what’s wrong

I want so much to jump for joy by this video as I hear a Nazarene General Superintendent rightly condemn the emergent church as one of the greatest concerns of our time. The emergent church does not bow down to the Almighty Bible and do what it says and so they rebel against the words of God. But, I am also saddened by this video because while Nina condemns the emergent church on one hand, on the other hand she does not have male genitalia.

I am not being crude here, it is just a fact, and a fact that determines that she is not a man. Do not misunderstand me, I love women. My mother was a woman and society would not succeed unless they had our children and were helpers around the home. Thank God for women. But God instructs us in the Bible that he wrote, that men and women have different roles, and to not follow the traditional roles of men and women in society is an abomination.

One of those important Biblical instructions we have is that women should not preach or lead men. So Nina Gunter's preaching is already unbiblical no matter what she might say.

There are a variety of arguments and demonic teaching from the emergent church and their liberal parents that promotes so called "equality" and support things like women in ministry. Yet before we look at what God's Word says about this important issue, you must decide whether or not you will accept the very words of Scripture as the inspired and inerrant words of God. Many who espouse a progressive view of women in ministry hold a low view of Scripture, viewing the Biblical text as the ideas, philosophies and musings of men (such as the Apostle Paul) rather than the very words of God himself.

If you deceive yourself by thinking that scripture can only be applied to so called historical "context" and say that we have different cultural considerations in the 21st century than you deny the Bible; for it says that God is unchanging. (Malachi 3:6) However, if you accept the Bible as inerrant, authoritative and "God-breathed," then he will know that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine and he will refrain from discarding those portions you do not believe to be "relevant" to your own situation. "Context" is irrelevant to an unchanging God, therefore all scripture applies to every context. So let us look at what the timeless Bible has to say about women teaching men.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 (New King James Version)

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

So there you go. God does not permit Nina Gunter to have authority over any men, in fact she should be SILENT. Paul goes on to say in 1st Corinthians 14:33-37:
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
So then, if we take the Almighty Bible seriously Nina should not be allowed to talk in church. If she has a question she should ask her husband when she gets home. The Bible clearly teaches that as a woman it is easier for her to be deceived. God did not make a woman brain the same as a man's, as the scripture reminds us when it says, "Adam was not deceived, but it was the woman who was deceived." Nina, as a woman, simply does not have the brain power to teach men. Maybe that is why she listed "Calvinism" and "Reformed theology" as two different things in her sermon.

I am not upset with her for her mistake, those things can be hard for a woman to understand. That is why one of the five men that serve as General Superintendents in the Church of the Nazarene should tell her to be quiet. Dr. Cunningham, Dr. Diehl, Dr. Porter, Dr. Warrick should all take the lead in taking back the proper male leadership of the Chrurch of the Nazarene. I don't have much hope for Dr. Middendorf as he and his son Jon have already emasculated themselves my selling their souls to the demonic teaching of the emergent church. (Click HERE for more information on that from Tim Wirth.)

So what does the Almighty Bible say Nina Gunter should be doing?
Titus 2:3-5 (New King James Version)

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
There you have it. Nina, as an older woman, should only be teaching younger women. She should help them learn to obey their husbands and to be homemakers. The Bible clearly says that for a woman to do anything else is to "blaspheme the Word of God".

So as I look at the Nazarene denomination as it allows unbiblical teaching of the emergent church to creep into its doors, I can't help but to wonder if the church wasn't apostate long before it even got off the ground. The Church of the Nazarene has has ordained women to the ministry since its founding in 1908 and supports the right of women to use their so called "God-given spiritual gifts" within the church.

A while ago a petition went around that condemned the unbiblical practices of the emergent church and it was sent to the General Superintendents in the Church of the Nazarene. I fear though that such a document may have reached Nina Gunter as the only General Superintendent that has publicly said anything against the emergent church. I worry first of all that as a woman she will not know what to do with it, and secondly that as a woman that has usurped the God given power of men that she will not pass it along and ask her male colleagues what to do with it.

I suggest that we start a new petition. This one will not stop at the unbiblical practices of the emergent church, but demand that the Church of the Nazarene will submit itself to the Bible in every way. For starters they will put the Bible back in the Nazarene logo (or adopt my new improved logo) and secondly they will forbid women from teaching in the Church as the Almighty Bible commands us.

If you believe in the Bible than you will be with me on this!!! I am sure my good friends and fellow watchmen Tim Wirth and Manny Silva are behind me. I know that they are not the only ones, they are just the only ones I know with good biblical blogs. So lets get a petition rolling and take back the Nazarene Church for the Bible!!

Charles F. Dobson


  1. I too was hopeful when I heard this small soundbite....however, it was voiced at the M7 Conference that was replete with emergent workshops. Puzzling.

  2. This site is beyond sad. ):

  3. Wow. I'm surprised you're even bothering with the Church of the Nazarene, since as you acknowledged, we've ordained women since before our founding.

    Also, characterizing those who differ from you on this as not believing the Bible or having a "low view" of the Bible isn't helpful. You don't just have an issue with our view on women. You have an issue with our view of Scripture, which is much more fundamental.

    BTW, I chose to go ahead and sign my name and link to the Nazarene church that I pastor. I'm happy to engage in conversation and don't feel a need to hide behind anonymity while doing so.

  4. Talk about an ad hominem argument! While you are certainly entitled to your narrow view of truth, I find your discourse demeaning and unchristian. Not only that, the fact that you are not willing even to sign your name, but slink around in anonymity says volumes about your character or lack thereof.

    John L. Bowlby

  5. My name is Charles F. Dobson . I am sorry that the Bible offends you, but the Bible says that some will be offended by the cornerstone of the Truth of the Word.

    1 Peter 2:7-8

    Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,' and 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.' They stumble, being disobedient to the WORD."

    Stop rejecting the Bible

  6. I will be ready at some point in time to focus closer on the issue of women pastors in the Nazarene church. I see no issue with your scriptural references as well, not like a lot of emergents I have dealt with who barely ever use scripture.

    For my efforts right now, I will probably strongly focus on the emergent invasion and contemplative spirituality poisoning that is going on, especially the planned retreat just before General Assembly, which is a sad disappointment and an outrage. It will be re-posted on my blog late tonight, and the heat will be turned up a notch, as my own church finds out more of this, and individuals will have to look at the truth and decided where they stand. As far as myself, I really am not concerned about what it will cost me; upholding God's Word and the true gospel is what is at stake.

  7. I am behind you Manny!!! We need more "Reformed Nazarenes" like you!!! You are right, once those emergents are gone we can deal with the women.

  8. Manny, I hope you'll contact some of the organizers of the event before you speak negatively about them publicly. Just common courtesy.

    Charles, you might want to put your name somewhere more prominent on your blog (like in your "Who Am I?" section of your sidebar). It took me a bit to realize that you weren't posting anonymously, since you (1) post using a handle, "Biblical Nazarene" instead of your real name, (2) don't use your name in your "Who Am I?" section, and (3) don't have your name in your Blogger profile. That's just a suggestion, from someone who spends quite a bit of time on the internet. :)

  9. This all sounds like a spoof to me. I would refer to someone as a brother in the Lord but not as a friend who I knew was behind me.
    With all respect I dont know who you are and we have never had communication before.
    This all sounds more like Greg Hortons or one of his buddies than a regular website.
    I think it is wrong to refer to someone as your good friend who you have never emailed or had communication with before.
    But hey nice try though.
    This is the comment that gave you away
    "I am behind you Manny!!! We need more "Reformed Nazarenes" like you!!! You are right, once those emergents are gone we can deal with the women."
    Nice try Greg or whoever you really are.

    Tim Wirth

  10. Again folks this blog is a spoof.
    I dont know this guy and am not sure what he is up to.
    Never met him and I see the same sort of sarcasm I see at unbeliever Greg Hortons site.
    To refer to me as a goof friend is an error on whoever this person really is.
    Im am not his good friend or brother in the Lord.
    I repeat this site is a spoof.
    Ignore it.
    Tim Wirth

  11. I have to agree, its a spoof.
    The "we can deal with the women" comment was also what did it for me. There has been too much written here by you to make me comfortable here, and I agree with Tim. We have never met or communicated with each other directly, so how can we be good friends?
    So please blog for real and show your true colors.

  12. How can you guys call believing the Bible a “spoof”? I though you guys were my friends, brothers in Jesus, because you guys believed the Bible as being the only Truth is Biblical Truth, even when that Truth isn’t popular. It was your blogs that inspired mine, I wanted to get in on the good fight against heresy. This post I made is True, the Church of the Nazarene has left Biblical teaching long before the “emergent church”. If we want our church to embrace the Bible, we need to help them see that they can not pick and choose which parts they can believe and which parts they don’t.

    You may not like what I wrote about women, but everything I wrote is Biblical. If you have a problem with it, then it is the Word of God you have a problem with. If you disagree with me, please use scripture to back up your points.


  13. If this is a spoof, it's an excellent one, because it takes the same method of argumentation used on the sites it links to and takes it just that little bit further. The only thing it's really missing is links to Lighthouse Trails. :) But I'm sure you'll get to that eventually. :)

  14. I love that you actually have comments from that chickenshit Tim Wirth. He'll be asking you to turn off your comments soon so that people can't point out what a douchebag he is. Love the satire, by the way. And no, Timmy, I'm not responsible for it, but I'm proud of anyone who praises Nina and then laments the lack of male genitalia. Hysterical.

  15. Greg,

    Please refrain from your language or I will have to delete your comment. Calling such names are inappropriate. Tim may be an apostate, reprobate, God hating, degenerate, because he no longer believes in ALL the Bible as the inspired and infallible Word of God, but I am praying for his redemption, as I pray for yours.


  16. Can I use squiggles and symbols like Yosemite Sam?

  17. I can't think of any reason why not. The Bible is silent on guys like Yosemite Sam. But be warned, God knows your heart.

  18. I LOVE this site. It is my new homepage. Not that we needed any further proof, but this blog absolutely proves this absolute truth: God has a great sense of humor. By blessing Charles, Tim and all of their defenders with far less than a collective brain amongst all of them, we can now laugh until we pee ourselves.

    I also love the fact that you are so busy making sure your pastor has the Stars and Bars properly displayed on the stage at your little country Nazarene church that you've completely missed the fact that you are no different than Osama bin Laden or any other extremist or fundamentalist--your only hope and prayer is the destruction of those with whom you disagree.

    As I've said many times before, I am so glad that Jesus didn't believe in such a way. If you value what you see in the mirror, then you should be glad, too.

    Peace (I'm still laughing--this site rocks).

  19. I teach Hermeneutics to people who really want to approach the Bible in appropriate ways and understand it's message. Thanks to this page i'll have another invaluable example to my students of how NOT TO treat the Bible. My favorite expression so far is "the ALMIGHTY BIBLE"!!! WOW - i've not seen such Bibliolatry in a long time. I actually have a hard time believing that the author of this web-site is for real and actually believes all that stuff but if you are for real - it is SAD. You are a very angry person as someone said and unless you let the ALMIGHTY GOD deal with YOUR heart none of your worship of the Bible will get you where you think you are going... May God have mercy on you and on all of us.

  20. you and tim wirth are obviously not Nazarenes, despite your disagreements. both of you fail to see the difference between DEsprictive scripture and PREsricpitve scripture. On top of that, Holiness/Weslyan Christians would not use quotes from Calvinists to back up arguments.

  21. Does following the Bible make you a Christian or does following Christ make you a Christian? I love the Bible and I believe God gave it to us and that it is fully inspired by him. And here's the deal... I'm emergent, and I love the Bible. However, the Bible does not save me. Jesus grace saves me. Please, stop this language of hate and talk with the love that Christ requires of us

  22. I just posted the previous comment and forgot to include this: I will always preach from the Bible. Biblical teaching is so very important. However, it needs to be done correctly. I still have yet to meet an emergent person who disagrees with me, and I still have yet to read anything by any emergent author (including Mclaren, Bell, and others) that disagree with me. Please read what these authors say, not what you've heard people say about them. They are solid Christians who attempt to further the kingdom (not water down the gospel as so many people suppose). So much of what people hear about the emergent church is bogus, and taken WAY out of context.

  23. I have to say that this article is so off base that it hurts my heart. It is obvious that someone is writing from their own personal bias. I went to school to train to do good exegetical work. I suggest you do the same... Also while I was there I met many women trainging to work in ministry and they were all a joy to go to class with and to grow along side. I would gladly take a position under most any of them because the call on their lives is real. And if God wants them ministering I'm glad to have them following his leading...

  24. I tend to agree with most of this poster's ideas. Mr. Dobson, it is not surprising that people take offense at your opinion that "regular" Nazarenes take a low view of Scripture. To all those who just say, "then why don't you just leave, if you don't like it", I say it isn't that easy. Let me share my story: I was attending a General Assembly at one of our churches in Arizona and was in the audience when Dr. Gunter rose to the pulpit and began to speak. I knew her as the head of the Mission Board of the General Church. Then, she began to preach. I was thinking to myself, what is going on here. So I was thinking she was speaking in that regard. Then she began to preach. I asked the person next to me why Dr. Gunter was preaching, and they said, "she's our new G.S., isn't it great?!" I did not respond. My mind immediately went to the IITimothy verse and bells went off. I had to physically get up and leave the sanctuary, I was so bothered. Since I was not raised in the Church of the Nazarene, I was not aware of their allowing or promoting of women in pastoral ministry. Women should not teach or usurp authority over man. My family does not share my opinion on women in pastoral ministry, so it is not easy for me to leave my church family. They are a loving caring group of Christians who need to be educated as to what Scripture teaches regarding Biblical teaching. My pastor knows my feelings. I will share my views with anyone who asks about it. I study the Word in order to find context and meaning, not just to read it through. I would strongly suggest ALL Nazarenes to pray specifically about this issue before reading God's Word. The logo issue (removing the Bible of all things)is a completely other issue. The Church of the Nazarene must be careful, or it will be completely apostate soon.

    John Estle
    Arizona/Southern Nevada District

  25. You're not going to make the Nazarene church "repent" with a blog like this...I also assume that if you're taking the time to "bring out" the Nazarene church, you're also doing that to other denominations that you feel don't see it the way you do. Because picking just the Nazarene church would be immature and sound pretty foolish.