The Leaven of Tim Wirth’s Carnal Drums

I am so torn, just as I was when I heard good biblical teaching that rejected the emergent church, coming out of the mouth of a woman in the pulpit. Though the emergent church was rightly attacked, sadly an unbiblical teaching of women in ministry was also promoted. You can read more about this HERE. Unfortunately, the good of one thing is canceled out by the unbiblicalness of the other. It only takes a little leaven. Nina Gunter should have trusted God’s word, and kept silent in church, and then perhaps God would have moved in a man, and prompted him to speak. If no man would stand for Truth, then the Bible tells us that rocks and donkey’s (Numbers 22) can cry out the Truth of God, but NEVER a women in the pulpit.

But God does not need donkeys’, burro’s or ass’, because He has men like Tim Wirth who stand up for the Almighty Bible and speak its Truth. But this is where I am also torn; if only Tim Wirth would stand up for the WHOLE BIBLE and not just the parts he doesn’t like about the emergent church.

I have yet to see any clarification on Tim Wirth’s websites that denounce women in ministry and clarifies that he does not believe Nina Gunter should be allowed to teach, or preach, or lead men. I have emailed him about this, and he has asked me not to share the contents of his email- so I will respect that, but why does he not come out publicly and let us know where he stands on the Bible regarding this issue?? I have no confidence in him as a man that supposedly believes the Bible is an innerant and authoritive concerning ALL things, and yet chooses to be silent on some Biblical infractions by the Nazarene denomination while attacking others. We can NOT just cherry pick the Bible and pick what WE want to be for or against. We are either with the Almighty Bible, or we are NOT. Which is it Tim Wirth????

I can’t help but to wonder why? Why Tim Wirth has chosen not to believe the whole Word of God? Then I discovered the reason why. Tim Wirth is still a slave to his carnal nature and is in need of Entire Sanctification. Gee, I hope Tim believes in Entire Sanctification as the Biblical teaching it is. Any “Concerned Nazarene” after all concerned about our most important and Biblical doctrine. Tim Wirth’s Entire Sanctification is his only hope at eradicating that carnal nature of his that is keeping him from embracing the entire Word of God!

Why do I say this? How do I know Tim wrestles with his carnal nature? The Bible tells me he does, because Tim Wirth plays the carnal music of the Devil called Rock and Roll.

Tim Wirth was the former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters and a number of other bands. The “Playboys”? Oh, Tim the fact that you proudly list a name of a band you once took part in that was based on a pornographic magazine is truly a sign of your carnality.

It would be one thing if Tim had repented of carnal Rock and Roll, but he has fallen under the lie from Hell, that we can use carnal music for the glory of God. Revelation 18:22 tells us that God’s music will last and will be sung in heaven for eternity. Satan’s music will cease and states that the world’s "harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard…any longer." You see, the Bible is clear that the world’s music is of the Devil and will not excape the judgment of Hell! Just listen to what Bible expert and author of the Truth War, John MacArthur has to say:

"Our music cannot be like the music of the world, because our God is not like their gods. Most of the world’s music reflects the world’s ways, the world’s standards, the world’s attitudes, the world’s gods. To attempt to use such music to reach the world is to lower the gospel in order to spread the gospel. If the world hears that our music is not much different from theirs, it will also be inclined to believe that the Christian way of life is not much different from theirs."

"Rock music, with its bombastic atonality and dissonance, is the musical mirror of hopeless, standardless, purposeless philosophy that rejects God and reason and floats without orientation in a sea of relativity and unrestrained self-expression. The music has no logical progression because it comes from a philosophy that renounces logic. It violates the brain because its philosophy violates reason. It violates the spirit, because its philosophy violates truth and goodness. And it violates God, because its philosophy violates all authority outside of self."

"Putting a Christian message in such a musical form [rock style] does not elevate the form but degrades the message to the level already established in the culture by that form."

I have no doubt that God leads Christians to give up rock and roll. The Bible strictly forbids the believer to associate with the evil things of the world. Yet Tim Wirth holds on to his love for his carnal drums even though the Bible says this leads to destruction. “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

A more apt description of rock and roll could not be given that the one found in this passage: the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” sums up rock and roll. We see, then, that it is impossible for one who loves the Father to love rock and roll. A choice must be made.

Unfortunately, Tim Wirth deceives himself and says that he can have both God and Rock and Roll. He thinks he can use his carnal drum music for God, as long as he uses words from the Bible as his lyrics. How sad is it that he would try and God’s word conform to fit in the world’s music of Rock and Roll? Listen to the Word of God Tim, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2).

The believer is forbidden to be conformed to this evil world. He must not allow himself to be fashioned by the world’s ways and thinking and lusts. It is impossible to know the perfect will of God unless he un-conforms his life to this world. And that is why Tim Wirth’s message can not be trusted, even when it seems right. A little leaven ruins the whole lump of dough making it wirthless.


Tim Wirth is playing in the Devil’s playground, which is why he will not condemn all unbiblical teaching. That is why he will not condemn the preaching of Nina Gunter in the church. Through Rock and Roll Tim Wirth is flirting with the occult, which often have women as “High Priestesses” in demonic rituals. Is Nina Gunter Tim Wirth’s occultic High Priestess? We know he loves the occultist music of Rock and Roll, so you never know.

Oh, if only Tim Wirth would heed the warning of Scripture and come and be separate from the Devil’s drum set. For, “What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Cor. 6:14-17).


Rock music, any rock music is FLESH! You can label it "Christian", but that doesn't change it's nature – it's still FLESH. You can label strychnine "candy", but that doesn't make it candy – it's still POISON.

Still don’t believe me? Let us look at what the Bible says. You can not argue with the Bible.

God is a SPIRIT.

"God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in truth." John 4:24

"Now the Lord is that SPIRIT:. . ." 2 Cor 3:17

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the FLESH, but after the SPIRIT." Romans 8:1

God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:. . ." John 6:64
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his SPIRIT." 1 John 4:13

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his SPIRIT:. . ." 1 Cor. 2:10

God's music is spiritual not fleshly.

". . . I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."(1 Cor. 14:15)

" . . . be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite, enemies.

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:5-8

"For the FLESH lusteth against the SPIRIT, and the SPIRIT against the FLESH: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ." Galatians 5: 16

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the FLESH." Philippians 3:3

God is against the FLESH.

Not only is the SPIRIT contrary to the FLESH, but God is AGAINST the FLESH.

"So then they that are in the FLESH cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"That no FLESH should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:29

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the FLESH with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24

So let's add this up . . .

1.Rock music (any rock music) is FLESH
2. God is SPIRIT.
3. God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.
4. The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite.
5. God is against the FLESH.

Answer... God is against Tim Wirth's carnality, drums and rock music. How can this lead to sound Bible teaching??????

How can anyone, who understands simple Bible verses, honestly "justify" rock music as a "tool for reaching people" for Jesus Christ? How can the "seeds" of FLESH grow "fruits" of the SPIRIT?

THEY CANNOT . . . IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Yet Tim Wirth IGNORES the BIBLE HERE. He thinks he can justify the carnal music he sows to his flesh. Tim Wirth thinks what he sows to his flesh will somehow reap something spiritual.

And ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are DECEIVED! According to God – a Christian who claims they are using "flesh" [rock music] to bring forth "spiritual" [new birth, salvation] — they are "MOCKING GOD" — and calling God a LIAR, according to Galatians 6:7.8!
This is not my opinion; it is what the Bible has to say!!!

Be not DECEIVED God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7,8

Could God possibly make it plainer? Only a disobedient, carnal, backslidde, Christian who will NOT submit to the Word of God like Tim Wirth would justify fleshly, rock music as a "tool" to bring forth the spiritual, new-birth! It is NOT possible! ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are deceived!

"Be not DECEIVED Tim Wirth, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:7,8

Pray for Tim Wirth’s soul for he is deceived. Pray that he will stop worshiping the High Priestesses Nina Gunter and stop defending he unbiblical position as Teacher over men. Only those who worship at the idol of liberal theology permits things the Bible condemns!!! And Pray that God will get to the root of this occultist practice found in Tim Wirth’s love for carnality found in his rock and roll music!!!!! Maybe if he will give up his drums then he could be used as the Watchmen God meant him to be, Repent Tim, Repent!! And as for everyone else, beware his teaching until he does!!!!!

Chuck F. Dobson

Bible Missing from Nazarene Logo?

Have you noticed? Can you see the shift into apostasy of our beloved Church of the Nazarene? Have you noticed that the Almighty BIBLE is no longer the ultimate authority in our denomination?

Sadly, it is true. You can even see it in the changing way the logo is being used in the Church of the Nazarene. Here is what the logo has been for years, The Bible in the center, with a dove and flame facing it and honoring the Word of God. Also, the logo contained the words"Holiness onto the Lord". It is important to remember that without the Bible there can be no real holiness.

But lately the church of the Nazarene has been removing the Bible from its logo showing us the true nature of where our tradition is headed- strait into heresy and apostasy. Just look at the official website of the Church of the Nazarene and you will see the dove, the fire, but NO BIBLE in their logo. I think this is an intentional covert act to subliminally communicate that the BIBLE is no longer important; a sign that they are embracing the post-modern lie that the Bible is no longer relevant. Something dark and demonic is behind this as the Devil is reshaping what our denomination has always been about- BIBLICAL HOLINESS. How can the Devil do this and have a foot hold on the leaders of our denomination? Because they are no longer protected because they have left the safety of being under the authority of the Almighty BIBLE.

Don't you think for a minute that this is not a big deal! The salvation of the millions of people the Church of the Nazarene reaches is at stake as a false gospel is now being preached in many of our churches with the endorsement of Nazarene Headquarters and Nazarene Colleges. And don't think for a second that that it is just a coincidence that the Emergent Nazarene's use a similar logo, also without the Bible, but with an "emergent" leaf in the dove's mouth. It is not an accident that our leadership in the denomination and our educational institutions have made a deal with the devil as they partner with the NEW AGE High Priests of Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Rob Bell, Shane Claiborne, Tony Campello and Rick Warren!!!

And the Church of the Nazarene has its own list of apostate, emergent, leaders- like James Diggs and his friends on the Emergent Nazarene site. These guys say things about how true religion is about helping the poor and never, ever, ever, tell people how they need to submit to the authority of the Bible and God's plan to get into heaven and not go to hell when they die. If they really cared about the poor they would abandon all that social gospel heresy and get out on the streets and lead these homeless individuals in the sinner’s prayer according to the BIBLE. Giving them food will only help people in the moment but giving them the spiritual food of God's Word, the BIBLE, that gives Life, will save them from hell forever. If the followers of the Emergent church read their Bible's they would know that.

So it is no wonder that these Emergent Nazarene's don't use the Bible in their version of Nazarene logo either; they do not submit to the authority of the BIBLE. And what is that leaf in they put in the dove's mouth? I believe the leaf is likely a reference to pot and drugs, as the relativistic mindset of their post-modern views make smoking weed acceptable. Don't believe me? These Emergent Nazarene's may not even know it themselves, but the Devil is working in those who have abandoned the sure footing of the almighty BIBLE, and because of this they will find themselves on the slippery slope that is likely to lead to such reprobate activity like drug use. I am sure that even if the Emergent Nazarene’s did not intend this leaf to be a reference to drugs, that the Devil working in them probably did. I may be wrong about this one, but it seems very suspicious to me. What else could a leaf in a doves mouth mean? Also, did you notice how their background is black, the color of darkness; I don't believe this is a coincidence either.

Anyway, it is hard to keep up with the many ways those who do not build their lives on the solid Rock of the Bible can stumble and be lead astray. That is why it is so shocking that the Church of the Nazarene would abandon the Bible as they have abandoned it in their logo. I still have not given up hope though for our denomination. There are still many Pastors and laypeople in our denomination who believe in the Bible. That is why I would like to encourage us Biblical Nazarenes to only use the logo with the Bible in it.

Thinking about this logo though, I may have an even better idea. As I have suggested in other posts, as well as my brethren Tim Wirth, and Manny Silva the church of the Nazarene needs reform. Maybe in this reformation the Church of the Nazarene should adopt a logo that honors God’s Word. Maybe we need a logo that tells us what is truly important- the BIBLE. Thinking about the old logo, even the one with the BIBLE in it, I can’t help to wonder why we have two symbols for the Holy Spirit. The logo has both a dove and fire, but we don’t need two symbols of the spirit because there is only ONE Spirit; just like there is only ONE God, ONE Jesus, and ONE inerrant, absolute Truth of the BIBLE. So I made a new logo that has just one symbol for the Holy Spirit as it comes from and works through the only source we have for reliable Truth in this world; the BIBLE. The BIBLE is central in this new logo as it is central for assuring a true faith that can keep us out of hell. I also added the word “biblical” in front of the phrase “Holiness unto the Lord”, because true holiness is Biblical Holiness.


Charles F. Dobson

We should all be “Reformed Nazarenes”

I just read Manny Silva’s post where he asks, “are we trying to please men or God?” I have been very pleased latley to find Nazarenes like this on the web lately. Manny and Tim Wirth at Nazarene Psalm 1:13, and the blogger ExNazarene, all clearly desire to please God over men. I have read the comments on some of their blogs from other Nazarenes and these men are being persecuted for following God; persecuted by members of the Church of the Nazarene. What in the world is happening?

But, Manny stands firm in his latest article and I am encouraged by it. He writes about the great cost of putting God first and said, “I risked not only getting friends upset at me, but family as well.” He goes on to say how important this message is and how having friends and love ones mad at him is a small price to pay for risking not telling them the message of the Bible that can save them from Hell. Now that is what pleasing God is all about, because God wants to save people from hell, but new age emergent Christians are spreading a false gospel that everything is OK, and there is no Hell. Sounds nice, but when people our being burned alive in hell forever they are going to wish that their friends were like Manny who was willing to risk having them mad at him to tell them that only believing the message of the Almighty Bible can save them.

You know, I kind of think eternity might be like how history will see George W. Bush in a few hundred years. Right now everyone is calling this Godly man terrible things, calling him a war monger but one day people will realize how right he was. George Bush did what was right even when it did not please people. I think that is what made him a good President, because he was a Christian who only wanted to please God. In the same way, people might be mad at us now if we are brave enough to stand up for the TRUTH of the Bible, but one day they will thank us.

So Manny takes on these emergent heretics even if it is a thankless task. He points out how they are abandoning the true teaching of the Bible and about how “they will argue with us that “the Word of God is really Jesus, not a book.” He talks about how these apostates say, “stop idolizing that book, and get to know Jesus”. And Manny sees right through it because he has “heard these arguments, and they are false, and deceiving, or just plain unintelligent.”

Of course this is unintelligent; I don’t even understand how people can separate out Jesus from the Bible as if you can follow one without the other. Can’t people see how stupid that is? The Bible is the WORD of GOD and Jesus is the WORD of GOD. You can’t make the Bible and Idol because God is the real God, only fake gods can be idols. Not only that the Bible teaches us that Word became flesh (John 1), and so Jesus is the Bible in human form. To deny the Bible as the ultimate authority in the universe is to deny Jesus Christ.

So, I am thankful for these new Reformed Nazarenes, not just Manny, but these other guys I mentioned to. Tim Wirth for instance is working hard to put out a DVD to expose the demonic liberal emergent teaching that has spread like leaven in Nazarene denomination. He is exposing the leadership that has lost its way and I hope this leads to real revival where we can have Godly leaders that believe the Bible again. After all we can only follow leaders who are following God, as Paul writes “follow me as I follow God’s Word”. (I Corinthians 11:1)

And we do need reform in our denomination, some one just commented in the previous post how in the manual of the Church of the Nazarene it does not say the Bible are God’s literal Words- well, if that is true then the manual needs reform too. I pray that as God brings reform and revival to our denomination that we will find bold, Biblical leaders like Manny Silvia and Tim Wirth to lead us. I don’t know if they would want to, I believe they are humble and aren’t looking to be in charge but only want God’s will for us. But God’s will isn’t being done, so like prophets in the wilderness they cry out saying make your path straight according to God’s one and only Word!!!!! I join their voice and say to our Nazarene brethren- REPENT and REFORM!!!

Charles F. Dobson

Another Concerned Nazarene

I am just another concerned Christian that the Church of the Nazarene has become more and more accepting of heretical teachings of the emergent church. I am not alone, I have found other blogs that also are concerned like; Nazarene Psalm 1:13, Reformed Nazarene, and ExNazarene. These courageous men stand up and speak the Truth against the blasphemous teaching of a growing number of so called “educated” theologians and professors in our denomination. A great link that exposes what our colleges are teaching can be found HERE.

Perhaps the devil planted seeds of this problem in our denomination long before the emergent church. I think it started the same way demonic liberalism has crept in to secular schools when the Bible was rejected in our public educational systems. It happened perhaps slower in our Christian schools because we did not remove the Bible, we just simply demoted it to second class under all of our fancy textbooks that contain only the wisdom of men. Our Nazarene colleges fell into temptation of wanting to be accepted by the world and were willing to demote the Bible to a second class book under the textbooks that allowed Nazarene colleges to qualify for accreditation. Right there these colleges put themselves more under the authority of government than the Bible. They may have thought that it was nothing more than a tiny compromise, but look where it has lead.

The Bible should be central in ALL education, it should be read in every class no matter what it is because the Bible is the ultimate authority and is without error on every topic. I even heard one of our colleges were teaching evolution, and this professors wrote a book trying to say that believing in evolution is compatible with the Christian faith. That is out right blasphemy. If evolution were real God would have told us so when He wrote the book of Genesis. Science is the religion of the Devil, and our Nazarene Colleges have decided to worship at it’s alter. I am not saying that science has gotten everything wrong, just where it fails to submit to the authority of the almighty Bible.

Our denomination should be ashamed. Parents send their kids to these colleges so they can learn the Bible and become great Christian witnesses to the world, and these colleges are leading them astray with fake Christianity. One of the other blogs I read said they think as Nazarenes we should stop paying our budgets as a way of protest. That is a bold move, and a Republican and true American I believe that the marketplace is an appropriate place to make such a statement. Going even further though, I think we will make a greater impact on the pocketbook of these ungodly colleges by not sending our kids at all, so they don’t get tuition income. I just do not think we should send our kids to these awful schools and instead we should keep them home and teach them the Bible.

Charles F. Dobson