The Leaven of Tim Wirth’s Carnal Drums

I am so torn, just as I was when I heard good biblical teaching that rejected the emergent church, coming out of the mouth of a woman in the pulpit. Though the emergent church was rightly attacked, sadly an unbiblical teaching of women in ministry was also promoted. You can read more about this HERE. Unfortunately, the good of one thing is canceled out by the unbiblicalness of the other. It only takes a little leaven. Nina Gunter should have trusted God’s word, and kept silent in church, and then perhaps God would have moved in a man, and prompted him to speak. If no man would stand for Truth, then the Bible tells us that rocks and donkey’s (Numbers 22) can cry out the Truth of God, but NEVER a women in the pulpit.

But God does not need donkeys’, burro’s or ass’, because He has men like Tim Wirth who stand up for the Almighty Bible and speak its Truth. But this is where I am also torn; if only Tim Wirth would stand up for the WHOLE BIBLE and not just the parts he doesn’t like about the emergent church.

I have yet to see any clarification on Tim Wirth’s websites that denounce women in ministry and clarifies that he does not believe Nina Gunter should be allowed to teach, or preach, or lead men. I have emailed him about this, and he has asked me not to share the contents of his email- so I will respect that, but why does he not come out publicly and let us know where he stands on the Bible regarding this issue?? I have no confidence in him as a man that supposedly believes the Bible is an innerant and authoritive concerning ALL things, and yet chooses to be silent on some Biblical infractions by the Nazarene denomination while attacking others. We can NOT just cherry pick the Bible and pick what WE want to be for or against. We are either with the Almighty Bible, or we are NOT. Which is it Tim Wirth????

I can’t help but to wonder why? Why Tim Wirth has chosen not to believe the whole Word of God? Then I discovered the reason why. Tim Wirth is still a slave to his carnal nature and is in need of Entire Sanctification. Gee, I hope Tim believes in Entire Sanctification as the Biblical teaching it is. Any “Concerned Nazarene” after all concerned about our most important and Biblical doctrine. Tim Wirth’s Entire Sanctification is his only hope at eradicating that carnal nature of his that is keeping him from embracing the entire Word of God!

Why do I say this? How do I know Tim wrestles with his carnal nature? The Bible tells me he does, because Tim Wirth plays the carnal music of the Devil called Rock and Roll.

Tim Wirth was the former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters and a number of other bands. The “Playboys”? Oh, Tim the fact that you proudly list a name of a band you once took part in that was based on a pornographic magazine is truly a sign of your carnality.

It would be one thing if Tim had repented of carnal Rock and Roll, but he has fallen under the lie from Hell, that we can use carnal music for the glory of God. Revelation 18:22 tells us that God’s music will last and will be sung in heaven for eternity. Satan’s music will cease and states that the world’s "harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard…any longer." You see, the Bible is clear that the world’s music is of the Devil and will not excape the judgment of Hell! Just listen to what Bible expert and author of the Truth War, John MacArthur has to say:

"Our music cannot be like the music of the world, because our God is not like their gods. Most of the world’s music reflects the world’s ways, the world’s standards, the world’s attitudes, the world’s gods. To attempt to use such music to reach the world is to lower the gospel in order to spread the gospel. If the world hears that our music is not much different from theirs, it will also be inclined to believe that the Christian way of life is not much different from theirs."

"Rock music, with its bombastic atonality and dissonance, is the musical mirror of hopeless, standardless, purposeless philosophy that rejects God and reason and floats without orientation in a sea of relativity and unrestrained self-expression. The music has no logical progression because it comes from a philosophy that renounces logic. It violates the brain because its philosophy violates reason. It violates the spirit, because its philosophy violates truth and goodness. And it violates God, because its philosophy violates all authority outside of self."

"Putting a Christian message in such a musical form [rock style] does not elevate the form but degrades the message to the level already established in the culture by that form."

I have no doubt that God leads Christians to give up rock and roll. The Bible strictly forbids the believer to associate with the evil things of the world. Yet Tim Wirth holds on to his love for his carnal drums even though the Bible says this leads to destruction. “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

A more apt description of rock and roll could not be given that the one found in this passage: the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” sums up rock and roll. We see, then, that it is impossible for one who loves the Father to love rock and roll. A choice must be made.

Unfortunately, Tim Wirth deceives himself and says that he can have both God and Rock and Roll. He thinks he can use his carnal drum music for God, as long as he uses words from the Bible as his lyrics. How sad is it that he would try and God’s word conform to fit in the world’s music of Rock and Roll? Listen to the Word of God Tim, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2).

The believer is forbidden to be conformed to this evil world. He must not allow himself to be fashioned by the world’s ways and thinking and lusts. It is impossible to know the perfect will of God unless he un-conforms his life to this world. And that is why Tim Wirth’s message can not be trusted, even when it seems right. A little leaven ruins the whole lump of dough making it wirthless.


Tim Wirth is playing in the Devil’s playground, which is why he will not condemn all unbiblical teaching. That is why he will not condemn the preaching of Nina Gunter in the church. Through Rock and Roll Tim Wirth is flirting with the occult, which often have women as “High Priestesses” in demonic rituals. Is Nina Gunter Tim Wirth’s occultic High Priestess? We know he loves the occultist music of Rock and Roll, so you never know.

Oh, if only Tim Wirth would heed the warning of Scripture and come and be separate from the Devil’s drum set. For, “What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Cor. 6:14-17).


Rock music, any rock music is FLESH! You can label it "Christian", but that doesn't change it's nature – it's still FLESH. You can label strychnine "candy", but that doesn't make it candy – it's still POISON.

Still don’t believe me? Let us look at what the Bible says. You can not argue with the Bible.

God is a SPIRIT.

"God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in truth." John 4:24

"Now the Lord is that SPIRIT:. . ." 2 Cor 3:17

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the FLESH, but after the SPIRIT." Romans 8:1

God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:. . ." John 6:64
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his SPIRIT." 1 John 4:13

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his SPIRIT:. . ." 1 Cor. 2:10

God's music is spiritual not fleshly.

". . . I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."(1 Cor. 14:15)

" . . . be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite, enemies.

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:5-8

"For the FLESH lusteth against the SPIRIT, and the SPIRIT against the FLESH: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ." Galatians 5: 16

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the FLESH." Philippians 3:3

God is against the FLESH.

Not only is the SPIRIT contrary to the FLESH, but God is AGAINST the FLESH.

"So then they that are in the FLESH cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"That no FLESH should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:29

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the FLESH with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24

So let's add this up . . .

1.Rock music (any rock music) is FLESH
2. God is SPIRIT.
3. God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.
4. The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite.
5. God is against the FLESH.

Answer... God is against Tim Wirth's carnality, drums and rock music. How can this lead to sound Bible teaching??????

How can anyone, who understands simple Bible verses, honestly "justify" rock music as a "tool for reaching people" for Jesus Christ? How can the "seeds" of FLESH grow "fruits" of the SPIRIT?

THEY CANNOT . . . IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Yet Tim Wirth IGNORES the BIBLE HERE. He thinks he can justify the carnal music he sows to his flesh. Tim Wirth thinks what he sows to his flesh will somehow reap something spiritual.

And ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are DECEIVED! According to God – a Christian who claims they are using "flesh" [rock music] to bring forth "spiritual" [new birth, salvation] — they are "MOCKING GOD" — and calling God a LIAR, according to Galatians 6:7.8!
This is not my opinion; it is what the Bible has to say!!!

Be not DECEIVED God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7,8

Could God possibly make it plainer? Only a disobedient, carnal, backslidde, Christian who will NOT submit to the Word of God like Tim Wirth would justify fleshly, rock music as a "tool" to bring forth the spiritual, new-birth! It is NOT possible! ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are deceived!

"Be not DECEIVED Tim Wirth, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:7,8

Pray for Tim Wirth’s soul for he is deceived. Pray that he will stop worshiping the High Priestesses Nina Gunter and stop defending he unbiblical position as Teacher over men. Only those who worship at the idol of liberal theology permits things the Bible condemns!!! And Pray that God will get to the root of this occultist practice found in Tim Wirth’s love for carnality found in his rock and roll music!!!!! Maybe if he will give up his drums then he could be used as the Watchmen God meant him to be, Repent Tim, Repent!! And as for everyone else, beware his teaching until he does!!!!!

Chuck F. Dobson

Nina Gunter shows us what’s wrong

I want so much to jump for joy by this video as I hear a Nazarene General Superintendent rightly condemn the emergent church as one of the greatest concerns of our time. The emergent church does not bow down to the Almighty Bible and do what it says and so they rebel against the words of God. But, I am also saddened by this video because while Nina condemns the emergent church on one hand, on the other hand she does not have male genitalia.

I am not being crude here, it is just a fact, and a fact that determines that she is not a man. Do not misunderstand me, I love women. My mother was a woman and society would not succeed unless they had our children and were helpers around the home. Thank God for women. But God instructs us in the Bible that he wrote, that men and women have different roles, and to not follow the traditional roles of men and women in society is an abomination.

One of those important Biblical instructions we have is that women should not preach or lead men. So Nina Gunter's preaching is already unbiblical no matter what she might say.

There are a variety of arguments and demonic teaching from the emergent church and their liberal parents that promotes so called "equality" and support things like women in ministry. Yet before we look at what God's Word says about this important issue, you must decide whether or not you will accept the very words of Scripture as the inspired and inerrant words of God. Many who espouse a progressive view of women in ministry hold a low view of Scripture, viewing the Biblical text as the ideas, philosophies and musings of men (such as the Apostle Paul) rather than the very words of God himself.

If you deceive yourself by thinking that scripture can only be applied to so called historical "context" and say that we have different cultural considerations in the 21st century than you deny the Bible; for it says that God is unchanging. (Malachi 3:6) However, if you accept the Bible as inerrant, authoritative and "God-breathed," then he will know that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine and he will refrain from discarding those portions you do not believe to be "relevant" to your own situation. "Context" is irrelevant to an unchanging God, therefore all scripture applies to every context. So let us look at what the timeless Bible has to say about women teaching men.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 (New King James Version)

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

So there you go. God does not permit Nina Gunter to have authority over any men, in fact she should be SILENT. Paul goes on to say in 1st Corinthians 14:33-37:

For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

So then, if we take the Almighty Bible seriously Nina should not be allowed to talk in church. If she has a question she should ask her husband when she gets home. The Bible clearly teaches that as a woman it is easier for her to be deceived. God did not make a woman brain the same as a man's, as the scripture reminds us when it says, "Adam was not deceived, but it was the woman who was deceived." Nina, as a woman, simply does not have the brain power to teach men. Maybe that is why she listed "Calvinism" and "Reformed theology" as two different things in her sermon.

I am not upset with her for her mistake, those things can be hard for a woman to understand. That is why one of the five men that serve as General Superintendents in the Church of the Nazarene should tell her to be quiet. Dr. Cunningham, Dr. Diehl, Dr. Porter, Dr. Warrick should all take the lead in taking back the proper male leadership of the Chrurch of the Nazarene. I don't have much hope for Dr. Middendorf as he and his son Jon have already emasculated themselves my selling their souls to the demonic teaching of the emergent church. (Click HERE for more information on that from Tim Wirth.)

So what does the Almighty Bible say Nina Gunter should be doing?

Titus 2:3-5 (New King James Version)

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

There you have it. Nina, as an older woman, should only be teaching younger women. She should help them learn to obey their husbands and to be homemakers. The Bible clearly says that for a woman to do anything else is to "blaspheme the Word of God".

So as I look at the Nazarene denomination as it allows unbiblical teaching of the emergent church to creep into its doors, I can't help but to wonder if the church wasn't apostate long before it even got off the ground. The Church of the Nazarene has has ordained women to the ministry since its founding in 1908 and supports the right of women to use their so called "God-given spiritual gifts" within the church.

A while ago a petition went around that condemned the unbiblical practices of the emergent church and it was sent to the General Superintendents in the Church of the Nazarene. I fear though that such a document may have reached Nina Gunter as the only General Superintendent that has publicly said anything against the emergent church. I worry first of all that as a woman she will not know what to do with it, and secondly that as a woman that has usurped the God given power of men that she will not pass it along and ask her male colleagues what to do with it.

I suggest that we start a new petition. This one will not stop at the unbiblical practices of the emergent church, but demand that the Church of the Nazarene will submit itself to the Bible in every way. For starters they will put the Bible back in the Nazarene logo (or adopt my new improved logo) and secondly they will forbid women from teaching in the Church as the Almighty Bible commands us.

If you believe in the Bible than you will be with me on this!!! I am sure my good friends and fellow watchmen Tim Wirth and Manny Silva are behind me. I know that they are not the only ones, they are just the only ones I know with good biblical blogs. So lets get a petition rolling and take back the Nazarene Church for the Bible!!

Charles F. Dobson