The Leaven of Tim Wirth’s Carnal Drums

I am so torn, just as I was when I heard good biblical teaching that rejected the emergent church, coming out of the mouth of a woman in the pulpit. Though the emergent church was rightly attacked, sadly an unbiblical teaching of women in ministry was also promoted. You can read more about this HERE. Unfortunately, the good of one thing is canceled out by the unbiblicalness of the other. It only takes a little leaven. Nina Gunter should have trusted God’s word, and kept silent in church, and then perhaps God would have moved in a man, and prompted him to speak. If no man would stand for Truth, then the Bible tells us that rocks and donkey’s (Numbers 22) can cry out the Truth of God, but NEVER a women in the pulpit.

But God does not need donkeys’, burro’s or ass’, because He has men like Tim Wirth who stand up for the Almighty Bible and speak its Truth. But this is where I am also torn; if only Tim Wirth would stand up for the WHOLE BIBLE and not just the parts he doesn’t like about the emergent church.

I have yet to see any clarification on Tim Wirth’s websites that denounce women in ministry and clarifies that he does not believe Nina Gunter should be allowed to teach, or preach, or lead men. I have emailed him about this, and he has asked me not to share the contents of his email- so I will respect that, but why does he not come out publicly and let us know where he stands on the Bible regarding this issue?? I have no confidence in him as a man that supposedly believes the Bible is an innerant and authoritive concerning ALL things, and yet chooses to be silent on some Biblical infractions by the Nazarene denomination while attacking others. We can NOT just cherry pick the Bible and pick what WE want to be for or against. We are either with the Almighty Bible, or we are NOT. Which is it Tim Wirth????

I can’t help but to wonder why? Why Tim Wirth has chosen not to believe the whole Word of God? Then I discovered the reason why. Tim Wirth is still a slave to his carnal nature and is in need of Entire Sanctification. Gee, I hope Tim believes in Entire Sanctification as the Biblical teaching it is. Any “Concerned Nazarene” after all concerned about our most important and Biblical doctrine. Tim Wirth’s Entire Sanctification is his only hope at eradicating that carnal nature of his that is keeping him from embracing the entire Word of God!

Why do I say this? How do I know Tim wrestles with his carnal nature? The Bible tells me he does, because Tim Wirth plays the carnal music of the Devil called Rock and Roll.

Tim Wirth was the former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters and a number of other bands. The “Playboys”? Oh, Tim the fact that you proudly list a name of a band you once took part in that was based on a pornographic magazine is truly a sign of your carnality.

It would be one thing if Tim had repented of carnal Rock and Roll, but he has fallen under the lie from Hell, that we can use carnal music for the glory of God. Revelation 18:22 tells us that God’s music will last and will be sung in heaven for eternity. Satan’s music will cease and states that the world’s "harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard…any longer." You see, the Bible is clear that the world’s music is of the Devil and will not excape the judgment of Hell! Just listen to what Bible expert and author of the Truth War, John MacArthur has to say:

"Our music cannot be like the music of the world, because our God is not like their gods. Most of the world’s music reflects the world’s ways, the world’s standards, the world’s attitudes, the world’s gods. To attempt to use such music to reach the world is to lower the gospel in order to spread the gospel. If the world hears that our music is not much different from theirs, it will also be inclined to believe that the Christian way of life is not much different from theirs."

"Rock music, with its bombastic atonality and dissonance, is the musical mirror of hopeless, standardless, purposeless philosophy that rejects God and reason and floats without orientation in a sea of relativity and unrestrained self-expression. The music has no logical progression because it comes from a philosophy that renounces logic. It violates the brain because its philosophy violates reason. It violates the spirit, because its philosophy violates truth and goodness. And it violates God, because its philosophy violates all authority outside of self."

"Putting a Christian message in such a musical form [rock style] does not elevate the form but degrades the message to the level already established in the culture by that form."

I have no doubt that God leads Christians to give up rock and roll. The Bible strictly forbids the believer to associate with the evil things of the world. Yet Tim Wirth holds on to his love for his carnal drums even though the Bible says this leads to destruction. “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

A more apt description of rock and roll could not be given that the one found in this passage: the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” sums up rock and roll. We see, then, that it is impossible for one who loves the Father to love rock and roll. A choice must be made.

Unfortunately, Tim Wirth deceives himself and says that he can have both God and Rock and Roll. He thinks he can use his carnal drum music for God, as long as he uses words from the Bible as his lyrics. How sad is it that he would try and God’s word conform to fit in the world’s music of Rock and Roll? Listen to the Word of God Tim, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2).

The believer is forbidden to be conformed to this evil world. He must not allow himself to be fashioned by the world’s ways and thinking and lusts. It is impossible to know the perfect will of God unless he un-conforms his life to this world. And that is why Tim Wirth’s message can not be trusted, even when it seems right. A little leaven ruins the whole lump of dough making it wirthless.


Tim Wirth is playing in the Devil’s playground, which is why he will not condemn all unbiblical teaching. That is why he will not condemn the preaching of Nina Gunter in the church. Through Rock and Roll Tim Wirth is flirting with the occult, which often have women as “High Priestesses” in demonic rituals. Is Nina Gunter Tim Wirth’s occultic High Priestess? We know he loves the occultist music of Rock and Roll, so you never know.

Oh, if only Tim Wirth would heed the warning of Scripture and come and be separate from the Devil’s drum set. For, “What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Cor. 6:14-17).


Rock music, any rock music is FLESH! You can label it "Christian", but that doesn't change it's nature – it's still FLESH. You can label strychnine "candy", but that doesn't make it candy – it's still POISON.

Still don’t believe me? Let us look at what the Bible says. You can not argue with the Bible.

God is a SPIRIT.

"God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in truth." John 4:24

"Now the Lord is that SPIRIT:. . ." 2 Cor 3:17

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the FLESH, but after the SPIRIT." Romans 8:1

God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:. . ." John 6:64
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his SPIRIT." 1 John 4:13

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his SPIRIT:. . ." 1 Cor. 2:10

God's music is spiritual not fleshly.

". . . I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."(1 Cor. 14:15)

" . . . be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite, enemies.

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:5-8

"For the FLESH lusteth against the SPIRIT, and the SPIRIT against the FLESH: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ." Galatians 5: 16

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the FLESH." Philippians 3:3

God is against the FLESH.

Not only is the SPIRIT contrary to the FLESH, but God is AGAINST the FLESH.

"So then they that are in the FLESH cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"That no FLESH should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:29

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the FLESH with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24

So let's add this up . . .

1.Rock music (any rock music) is FLESH
2. God is SPIRIT.
3. God's salvation and methods are SPIRIT.
4. The SPIRIT and the FLESH are contrary, opposite.
5. God is against the FLESH.

Answer... God is against Tim Wirth's carnality, drums and rock music. How can this lead to sound Bible teaching??????

How can anyone, who understands simple Bible verses, honestly "justify" rock music as a "tool for reaching people" for Jesus Christ? How can the "seeds" of FLESH grow "fruits" of the SPIRIT?

THEY CANNOT . . . IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Yet Tim Wirth IGNORES the BIBLE HERE. He thinks he can justify the carnal music he sows to his flesh. Tim Wirth thinks what he sows to his flesh will somehow reap something spiritual.

And ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are DECEIVED! According to God – a Christian who claims they are using "flesh" [rock music] to bring forth "spiritual" [new birth, salvation] — they are "MOCKING GOD" — and calling God a LIAR, according to Galatians 6:7.8!
This is not my opinion; it is what the Bible has to say!!!

Be not DECEIVED God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7,8

Could God possibly make it plainer? Only a disobedient, carnal, backslidde, Christian who will NOT submit to the Word of God like Tim Wirth would justify fleshly, rock music as a "tool" to bring forth the spiritual, new-birth! It is NOT possible! ANYONE who thinks they can "sow" to the FLESH and "reap" SPIRITUAL fruits according to God - they are deceived!

"Be not DECEIVED Tim Wirth, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his FLESH of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the SPIRIT of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:7,8

Pray for Tim Wirth’s soul for he is deceived. Pray that he will stop worshiping the High Priestesses Nina Gunter and stop defending he unbiblical position as Teacher over men. Only those who worship at the idol of liberal theology permits things the Bible condemns!!! And Pray that God will get to the root of this occultist practice found in Tim Wirth’s love for carnality found in his rock and roll music!!!!! Maybe if he will give up his drums then he could be used as the Watchmen God meant him to be, Repent Tim, Repent!! And as for everyone else, beware his teaching until he does!!!!!

Chuck F. Dobson

Backsliding Tim Wirth Calls the Bible a Joke!!

I am deeply saddened to report how a recent hero of mine has fallen into deception. I only hope I can be like Nathan to the mighty King David and help Tim Wirth repent and believe ALL of the Bible again.

Who is Tim Wirth? Or should I say who was Tim Wirth before he had backslidden into apostasy? Tim Wirth was the champion for the Bible in the Church of the Nazarene as he fought against the heresy of the emergent church in our denomination. He is the author of many blogs and an upcoming DVD on the topic, including. “Psalm 11:3”, “Concerned Nazarenes”, and “The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry”. But now he has put all that work in danger as Tim Wirth has lost true discernment that can only come from the Bible and the Bible ALONE. I do not think his ministry can be trusted until Tim repents and puts his faith back in the Bible.

I first became aware of how Tim has become deceived when he commented on my last post, “Nina Gunter shows us what’s wrong”. He commented on the biblical perspective I outlined concerning Nina Gunter and women in ministry, saying, “This all sounds like a spoof to me.”

Another word for “spoof” is “joke” or “mock”. Tim Wirth read the words of scripture I posted on my blog and called them a joke. Everything I said I backed up with scripture, everything. Yet Tim Wirth did not give any scriptural arguments for his belief that it is a joke that the Bible commands that women should not preach and lead men.

Tim, I say this in love, but you need to read Galatians 6:7-8

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

Now, before I am criticized for not following Biblical command in Matt 18, I do want to say that I followed these steps before I brought this sad sin of apostasy to the light of this public forum. I wrote Tim in an email saying:

Tim,

I regret that you think what the Bible says is a spoof. If my reading of scripture is in error, please show me with scripture. I am hurt that you called my blog a joke when I am trying to stand up for what the Bible says. So, as the Bible teaches me, I have decided to put Matthew 18:15 in practice. "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.”

I hope you will continue in your work to defend the Bible- the whole Bible and call everyone who does the same your brother and friend.

I will not post all of Tim’s response for the sake of his privacy, but I will share two things that he said to me. First was that “the church of the Nazarene has had ordained females for sometime now.” I am not sure why “how long” they have not followed the Bible really matters. Is there a statute of limitations on following scripture? If we disobey it long enough does that get us off the hook? Of course Tim Wirth gave no scriptural references for why he thinks the length of time the church of Nazarene has followed this unbiblical practice is relevant.

Second, Tim accused me of operating without accountability. Tim writes, “Who are you, what church do you come from...I have a real church and a real pastor I am accountable to who knows what I do.” I find this comment odd for a Christian who holds the Bible as the one True authority in our lives. Is Tim Wirth operating under the authority of his church and his Pastor, or is he putting himself under the authority of the Bible? Men are easily deceived, that is while we can only trust what the inerrant, infallible, unquestionable Bible has to say.

Tim did not provide any scripture for why he thinks his Pastor and Church can give him accountability and authority that trumps the Word of God. The Bible is the final Authority on everything. Tim Wirth’s basing his authority that comes from clergy and churches sounds like he is on the slippery slope that leads us to back to Rome. Ironically this was a topic of one of Tim’s posts (HERE) where he admits that he has Roman Catholic roots. It is sad to see him speak truth in that post when he says “So at first we need to establish who’s word we believe? Gods Word or the word of man?” But now he seems to revert back to his former Catholic thinking that finds authority in the human beings in his church and the idolatry of his Pastor rather than in the Word of God alone.

Finally Tim Wirth did not respond to my request to meet with him and another person, as required by scripture in Mathew 18. So I now have no other choice but to bring this to the public as commanded by the inerrant Bible. My actions are absolutely right in this because I am following the Bible which is absolutely right.

Tim Wirth does not believe all the Bible is the inerrant Authoritive Word of God. He seems to think he can pick and choose the verses he likes to follow and those he does not. I am not sure if Tim has been brained washed by the demonic liberal feminist media, but Tim Wirth thinks he can reject teaching found in Timothy 2:12-14, Corinthians 14:33-37, and Titus 2:3-5. Everything I said comes from these verses. I did not share my opinion, but God’s opinion according to the Bible. Yet Tim Wirth seems to think these verses are a joke.

I am praying for you Tim. Please repent so God can bless you as you fight the heresy of the emergent church. But you can’t fight heresy while being a heretic and not believing EVERY WORD in the BIBLE as God breathed. I am praying for you.

For those who think that I am making a big deal out of nothing, think again. The Bible says a little leaven ruins the whole lump of dough. What good is it for Tim Wirth to drive out the evil emergent church if he leaves the leaven of the sin of not trusting ALL of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God behind? The Devil is known for putting a little bit of truth in every lie. So we have to be very careful now with Tim Wirth’s teaching because even where he may speak some truth, until he repents and believes in the Bible alone, he has put himself under the authority of the Devil; and there could be lies written in-between the lines. This is very very dangerous. Please repent Tim, confess your sin of rejecting the Word of God and be restored.

Please, if anyone leaves any comments please give Bible references to back up your argument.